C2C Fortnightly News: Try Try Try to Understand... He's a Magic WAN - NC2C005

Tim McConnaughy: 0:00

Remember that it was two weeks ago that we had that article where the CSP's were saying nobody cares about cloud costs anymore.

Alex Perkins: 0:05

Yeah, exactly, well, here's the alternate view.

Tim McConnaughy: 0:09

Here's the rebuttal, right Right in your face.

Chris Miles: 0:11

Welcome to the Cables to Clouds podcast. Cloud adoption is on the rise and many network infrastructure professionals are being asked to adopt a hybrid approach as individuals who have already started this journey. We would like to empower those professionals with the tools and the knowledge to bridge the gap.

Alex Perkins: 0:41

Hello and welcome back to your Fortnite. Lee Cables to Clouds news episode. I will be your host today. Alex Perkins, I am at Bumps in the Wire on socials, joined as always by Chris and Tim. Chris is at BGP main, tim is at one goal. We're going to jump right in because we got quite the episode this, this, this two week period, right.

Alex Perkins: 1:05

There's a lot of stuff to talk about, a lot of stuff that has happened. We got a big one from Cloudflare and since I'm the only person that doesn't work for one of these vendors, I'll just lead us right into this. So Cloudflare bought a company called Nefeli and they're basically integrating it into their Cloudflare one platform. They have like Magic WAN and Magic Firewall and I don't, I think everything's like called Magic something. Basically this one now is Magic Cloud Networking and essentially it's Cloudflare entering the MCM or multi cloud networking market.

Alex Perkins: 1:43

The funny part is that there was an article that they did with Silver Linings that basically they called out they they think Alcira and Aviatrix multi cloud approach is outdated. So, as you can imagine, this stirred up a little bit of controversy. There's been some interesting threads on LinkedIn and whatnot about it, but I guess, as far as the technology goes. My understanding is Nefeli they use just APIs, right, like that's how they coordinate all the multi cloud networking, is that they just do API calls to all these? So I don't know feature wise, like how fleshed out this thing is. Nefeli doesn't have a website anymore. There wasn't a whole lot of information about them. I think they had what I read, something like they had gotten eight to 10 million or something investments so far and there just wasn't a lot known about them. So I don't you guys have anything to add on this one.

Chris Miles: 2:35

Yeah. So you know, tim and I will probably use the automatic disclaimer that nothing that we say on this podcast reflects the opinions of our employer. But first of all, I think the thing is this is a good thing. You know, obviously, we're on a podcast that focuses on multi cloud, hybrid cloud networking, right? So this is, this is even more validation that this market is is a, you know, a thing that that's going to be here to stay.

Chris Miles: 3:04

So a couple points that I will make about this is absolutely what this product, or, you know, offering, is going to do. I see value in it. There's definitely value to orchestrating this end in multi cloud network across all your environments, etc. Right there, there's definite value in that. The thing that I'm curious about is is, if you're doing that, you're always going to be limited by what the CSP offers to you, right? If you want to purely focus on a cloud native perspective when it comes to networking, you are, you're going to be limited in that capacity.

Chris Miles: 3:43

So I'm with you, alex. I'm curious what features you can really add on top of this and what you can really expand it to, and I didn't see a lot of detail in here about visibility, so I'm imagining that. You know there's probably some flow log ingestion component to it. You know it's hard to tell because I can't see Nefeli's website anymore so I don't really know the details about their offering. But yeah, I'm curious to see where this goes. The only other commentary I have about it is I hate the term magic.

Chris Miles: 4:14

Like like that, like Magic, is something that's unexplainable. Right, there's no detail as to how things are happening behind the hood when it comes to magic, but technology should be something that is predictable and able to articulate, whereas magic does not correlate with that.

Tim McConnaughy: 4:34

So that's one gripe that I have, I think, the magic bit, and I don't know this right because I don't work for Cloudflare. I've never asked anyone who works there, but if I had to guess, their whole magic bent is probably based on the. Is it Arthur C Clarke?

Alex Perkins: 4:52

Yes, I was just going to say that.

Tim McConnaughy: 4:54

Any sufficiently advanced technologies indistinguishable from magic.

Tim McConnaughy: 4:58

I think that's probably what they're going for, or maybe I'm giving them too much credit and their marketing just loves the word magic, thinking everything's simple. So I'm hoping it's the former that, yeah anyway. So my thought about this is very close to yours, chris. It's a good thing get another player in the market. Honestly, for those who may not already know, pretty much every networking MCN vendor that I'm aware of does some form of cloud orchestration already. I mean, you kind of have to, otherwise you're just doing your piece and you're relying on the customer to go figure out the cloud native part on their own. So just put that out there, that if Nefeli's just doing cloud orchestration, there's a lot of value to that. I'm right there with you that I think it could be limited, but what I'm really interested in is not so much. Well, not, I say not so much, but the product, yeah, is interesting. I'm curious to see how Cloudflare integrates it with the rest of its portfolio.

Tim McConnaughy: 5:56

Are we going to see a hybrid cloud WAN type of I mean not to use the AWS term right, but you got Magic WAN, you've got your cloud networking. Are they going to try to marry the two and get a hybrid cloud solution? There's a lot of options here. Historically, of course, companies like Cisco and other big vendors that integrate smaller vendors struggle with that, but I'm very interested to see if Cloudflare can pull off the impossible and actually get their technology stacks talking.

Chris Miles: 6:27

Yeah, that's a good point. There could be a very compelling ingress story here if they can marry all these two things together. So, yeah, that's a good point.

Alex Perkins: 6:38

Yeah, absolutely, and I will just say that I also very much echo the sentiment that this is good for the industry, kind of validates everything. And there's another article we'll talk about later on in this episode that kind of does something similar, so we'll move on from this one, but there's a lot that could be said about this, so maybe a future episode or something, who knows?

Tim McConnaughy: 6:58

Maybe if somebody out there from Cloudflare and if Ellie wants to show us how this thing's going to work dude, we'd love to hear from you.

Alex Perkins: 7:04

Yep, absolutely so. Chris, you want to take us away with the next one?

Chris Miles: 7:08

Sure. So yeah, we also have an article in here from techspotcom detailing that that the juniper shareholders have actually filed a lawsuit against the board of directors, insisting that the board and the executives are kind of nefariously getting some undisclosed benefits from this acquisition from HPE. That does not vote well. Yeah, they call out that the shareholders are getting these unique benefits, which, I mean, this isn't completely unheard of. I think we've seen this before. But yeah, I'm curious to see where this one will go at the end of the day. But I don't know, how do you guys feel?

Alex Perkins: 7:56

Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't have a whole lot on this other than to me this is just starting to be a somewhat disturbing trend of not from the perspective of like execs taking advantage. That shouldn't happen. Obviously, I'm more worried about the precedent that sets about a small shareholder suing the entire company and holding up innovations or partnerships and mergers acquisitions. This is the second one that I've seen this happen to. Obviously, elon just got sued for his salary package and it was someone that has nine shares. That's crazy that this can start happening and screwing up giant acquisitions like this. It's just something to watch out for.

Tim McConnaughy: 8:49

We usually see it in another form and that's probably why it seems new or different. Usually, what you see is that fiduciary responsibility piece where a shareholder can sue the board or CEO for failing to do everything possible to maximize the I forget there's a name for it. The name for that completely just flew out of my head right as I was saying it. It's not unheard of. Usually it's used in that respect. It's nice to see it turned around for once, where a shareholder is actually suing a company for something other than just doing everything possible to maximize its value. It's a very good point that here we have the shareholders basically saying there's something else in the article as well, not just that the board and the executives are essentially getting golden parachutes and getting treated as a preferred stock seller, but more that like or as well, should I say that the price was like really Something we also noticed the price is really low and the value of the stock was not correctly measured. We said it ourselves it was $14 billion for Juniper Network seems awful, freaking cheap.

Alex Perkins: 10:07

Yeah, that was one of the first things I called out was like man, that is a steal.

Tim McConnaughy: 10:11

So, yeah, there might be something to this. What kind of backdoor deals might have been made, and who knows? We're just speculating, but we ourselves, and I think many people, thought like holy crap, I can't believe Juniper only sold for $14 billion and maybe there might be some somewhere to this. No, not to Belabor, but a little more broadly. It is an interesting idea that anybody can buy shares of a company and essentially troll them through litigation. I think I'm curious. I don't think it happens that often, or if it does, it's somewhat summarily dismissed or quickly taken care of, because you just don't read about these stories very much. But it's interesting that the stock market allows that kind of stuff.

Alex Perkins: 10:53

Right, and I'm not even saying that it's good or bad, I'm just saying it's something like for sure that keep an eye on, especially if it starts happening more and more, because you never know what these things spiral into.

Chris Miles: 11:03

Yeah, for sure, yeah, stall tactics are a thing in every facet Time kills all deals, right?

Tim McConnaughy: 11:12

The salespeople know that one. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Perkins: 11:14

All right, next one, tim, you want to take us away on this one?

Tim McConnaughy: 11:19

Well, speaking of our good buddy Elon, we have an article here from TechCrunch. Elon Musk has apparently sued OpenAI for breach of contract. So, as with all Elon stories, this is really tangled and I'll try to untangle it a bit. So Elon was an original investor for OpenAI. So he gave them several million I think 44 million or something like that but he basically was telling them they needed to get funding. He was telling OpenAI you need to get funding or this is going nowhere. So they did. So that's Sam Altman and whatnot. They created a for-profit arm for OpenAI. They started gathering funding. So Elon then said basically, you guys aren't going to survive unless Tesla buys you. And he wanted to buy OpenAI at the time, which is right on brand. They refused. Elon walked and went and started his own AI company.

Tim McConnaughy: 12:20

Now he's suing OpenAI for breach of contract, like I said, and in response, openai has actually released a bunch of emails detailing this interaction between Elon and the board. So who do you believe here? On one side, it seems like Elon is doing is being the good guy trying to get everybody to meet the contract that they set out and use AI for the benefit of mankind. On the other side, based on these emails it looks like it might be more like he wanted to buy the company. It didn't work out and he started a competitor and now he wants to cross the competition. So I don't know. What do you guys think about this one?

Alex Perkins: 13:02

It does seem a little bit like both things can be true, depending on your interpretation, right, and who you like and who you don't like. To me, at least, it partly seems like the point Elon is making is that he wanted them to raise money, of course, because, as he calls out in the emails, you need so much compute to do this that you need a billion a year, I think is what he said, or something like that in one of the emails. But I think his argument is that he wanted them to have donations and not be a for-profit company to get that money, and I think that's where the crux of this argument comes. And then he probably got mad because Microsoft basically partnered up with them and gave them all that money. So it's like you said, tim, there's so much nuance behind all this. Are those all the emails? There's so much that we don't know and that we're seeing selectively, it's hard to tell what's really happening here.

Chris Miles: 14:02

Yeah, I don't think it's uncouth to say that I'm not relying on anything Elon's doing for being for the greater good of the world in today's age. I think you hit it right on the nail, alex. I think what happened was, obviously he had somewhat of an investment opportunity in there. He wanted to make it his own and then, once Microsoft stepped in I love that they put this quote in here, because I think this is probably what really just brought him with unbridled rage and probably brought this upon them but he was talking about GPT-4 being the best model out there and he says we are waiting for the competition to arrive. It will arrive, I'm sure, but the fact is that we just had the leading LLM out there. So it was just like we're waiting for the competition, just not even paying any attention to what Elon was doing, and he probably just couldn't fucking handle that. It's like totally, completely poiled over. As we can see, the way he usually reacts with emotion is not the most even-keel guy out there. So yeah, that's my two cents, all right.

Alex Perkins: 15:15

Yeah, we won't belabor that for super long. I got two quick articles here. So one is from a blog that our buddy, will Collins, sent over to me. It's andoverintelcom. So the title is what Enterprises Think they Got Wrong with. The Cloud is basically what this is about, and there's a lot of data in this article, a lot of numbers, but it's actually very well written and very well researched and shows from a decent sample size of what different people think that they got wrong with the cloud. There's a lot of things in here. There's some vendor blaming, there's some lift and shift issues. There's all the stuff that you would think of, but it's really cool to actually see hard data to back up a lot of these claims that we've been hearing for years and what people are pointing to as problems for what is going on with the cloud, especially all the FinNOP stuff. That's been going crazy. You guys have any thoughts about this one before I move to the next one, Just real quick, I didn't think that.

Tim McConnaughy: 16:21

So the survey was what? 274 enterprises or something.

Alex Perkins: 16:24

Yeah, something like that.

Tim McConnaughy: 16:25

And 255 of them had underestimated how much the cloud would cost. Yeah, yeah, but that was great. And also there's a whole section of this talking about how enterprises feel cheated and misled about cloud costs and how much they were told by vendors that the cloud would cost. And I'm working with customers, chris, you're working with customers every day specifically about optimizing cloud costs, so that's, it's huge. It's on everybody's. Remember that it was two weeks ago that we had that article where the CSPs were saying nobody cares about cloud costs anymore.

Alex Perkins: 17:01

Yeah, exactly. Well, here's the alternate view. Yeah.

Tim McConnaughy: 17:05

Here's the rebuttal, right Right in your face. It was great, right? It's something that I think a lot of us knew. It was kind of almost a dull thing, but it's good to see the receipts, if you will, on a lot of this stuff.

Chris Miles: 17:17

Yeah, and I think, like you said, tim, I talk to customers every day Cost is definitely still a consideration, something we talk about ad nauseum every single day. One thing I really found interesting from this like you said, tim, of 274 enterprises, 208 said if they should have done something different, had they been more thorough, and I think that was a really interesting point, because most of the people I talk to on a regular basis rarely do they get it right the first time.

Chris Miles: 17:47

You got to get in figure out what's hard, why things are painful, and then you adapt to it. Yeah, really hard. I think there's definitely some opportunity there for making that easier for people that were late. There's still people that hadn't really started their migration right, so hopefully they can benefit from those stories. But yeah, we'll have to see.

Alex Perkins: 18:13

On that vein, chris, they call out. A lot of people felt like they didn't push back hard enough when the executives were like, go rush to the cloud right now.

Tim McConnaughy: 18:22

Put it all in the cloud, right, that's right.

Alex Perkins: 18:24

I think, like you said, that's a really good. I hope CIOs are reading these kind of things right.

Tim McConnaughy: 18:29

There was such a herd mentality that they're not reading.

Chris Miles: 18:32

I'm not reading. There's a whole thing tonight they're not.

Tim McConnaughy: 18:35

But I mean it's funny, because rarely do you get such a good view at the top to realize what a herd mentality the whole thing tends to be Like. Let's read Gartner and follow the magic quadrant and let's do what everybody else is doing. You realize that some of these people are being paid four times your salary to do what everybody else is doing, Absolutely.

Alex Perkins: 18:59

All right, the second one. So this is from SilverLinings blog. So it's Arista Steel's data center switch crown from Cisco in Q4. I wanted to add this one because, while it's a significant thing to say that, the title, I think, to me is a bit misleading, because it's really more the head. This is just Q4. Okay, first I want to just put that into perspective. This is only happening in Q4. And it's kind of weird to me that what they're saying is they're hyperscalar. Like hyperscalars are the reason that they beat them. Is hyperscalar the same thing as Interpress Data Center? No, this article makes it seem like those are the same things and I didn't like how that data is kind of collected.

Tim McConnaughy: 19:44

Yeah, obfuscated, kind of buried the lead on this one for sure.

Alex Perkins: 19:48

Yeah, so I don't know. But also the bigger story point here is that if Arista is making more money off of the hyperscalars than Cisco is making from Interpress Data Centers, that should more show you how big the clouds are becoming compared to Enterprise. Right Like that's the real story here. That's like the hidden message to me that this has.

Tim McConnaughy: 20:12

It's like if AWS places an order in Q3, they're going to just you know like maybe somebody will win just on that right.

Alex Perkins: 20:20

That's the thing. It's like oh, AWS is doing a refresh right Like worst, all the money's coming. Yeah, All right, Chris, you had a couple you wanted to talk about real quick.

Chris Miles: 20:30

Yeah, so one that we have here is an update from the Microsoft Azure blog. It's, I will say it's a very kind of bare bones update from them, just talking about their service offerings and their partnerships related to multi-cloud networking. You know, it kind of just covers things at a basic level Azure, arc Azure, vwin, vpn, couple, integration partners, things like that. So it's not really that interesting necessarily if you've been working in this space for a while, but what I think the just the fact that it exists is interesting in the sense that this is this is Microsoft finally coming to the table and acknowledging multi-cloud networking at a broader scale? Right, we've seen this from OCI, we've seen this from GCP, which are obviously below Azure and the market share. So now we've got Azure, who is probably going to be eventually the number one, I would say.

Tim McConnaughy: 21:33

Yeah, this year probably yeah.

Chris Miles: 21:37

Having a multi-cloud story. You know what I mean. So I think just that impact alone, that compare, or combined with the you know, the cloudflare stuff that's happened this week, I feel like that's all huge for the MCN market. Maybe we can, or at the point we can, just start saying MCN, maybe that's the.

Tim McConnaughy: 21:54

People will understand what we're talking about.

Chris Miles: 21:56

Yeah, finally, but yeah, so that's my take on that one. I don't know how you guys feel.

Tim McConnaughy: 22:00

Yeah, no, this is great. So it's somewhat validating running a multi-cloud networking podcast for the past year and it's not like MCN is really new. But I feel like the Ron Paul Giff, like it's happening, like it's really Radnet waves. Yeah, so this is great, right, I mean Azure is saying the MCN word. The thing is the truthfully, truthfully, truthfully no cloud provider, I don't care who you are, you can't pretend it doesn't exist anymore. It's done. Yeah, nobody's going to be single cloud. People will start in a single cloud, probably, but nobody's going to stay there. They just need to fall in line and, like everybody else and get multi-cloud going and make it as easy as possible for customers to move their workloads, do their identity in Azure if that's where they want to do it, like all this stuff we've been talking about for the last year, right? So I'm all on board. This is about time.

Alex Perkins: 22:58

Yeah, again, another one to me that the hidden message, if you will, behind this is where's AWS? They've been the ones for so long that never really acknowledged, as there are other clouds out there, and now we got OCI, gcp and Azure all talking about this stuff. If I'm AWS man, this is a bigger deal than it seems like it is, and they need to get out in front of this and start really talking about that story and getting articles out there about what they do.

Tim McConnaughy: 23:27

For what it's worth they do actually. They say hybrid cloud but they mean it more as like a connectivity outside of the cloud and I think eventually hybrid cloud is probably more will come to en-gumpus the entire experience of inter-intra, inter-and outside cloud connectivity.

Chris Miles: 23:48

We talk about hybrid cloud today right.

Tim McConnaughy: 23:50

So I think that might ultimately be the real thing. But I mean, when we're talking about between two clouds, it's multi-cloud, right. It's still the right term, so yeah.

Chris Miles: 24:00

I think the day that I'm watching a presentation from any one of these vendors maybe AWS specifically and I see the Azure logo or the GCP logo, that's what I know Things have really hit right, that's, we've reached critical mass, so let's go on real quick. That we'll cover. This is one that we'll talk about too deep. But AWS kind of on the tail of what GCP announced. I think we talked about it last two weeks ago.

Chris Miles: 24:29

But, yeah, so now AWS is offering free data transfer out to the internet. When moving out of AWS, we obviously were thinking this is directly related to EU regulations that come with this. One thing I noticed you know there's a. I think there is a. There's a limitation. I guess you can get an exception for this of a hundred gigabytes per month from each region to the internet when moving out of AWS. One thing I don't know if it was called out directly in this blog post or if I saw it somewhere else, but the AWS actually isn't requiring that you close your account, whereas GCP I remember they were like you got to close out, you really got to, you got to close the door and leave.

Tim McConnaughy: 25:10

Prove it right.

Chris Miles: 25:12

Whereas AWS is, you know it's, you leave it, it's there for when you want to come back type situation.

Tim McConnaughy: 25:18

Yeah, it just says when you want to move out of a, the AWS blog that we're referencing specifically. It's a little bit vague. So, yeah, I think you're right, chris, it doesn't, because the GCP one was not vague at all. Right, like you, you will close your account, right? This just says when you want to move outside of AWS. So that's a, that's a good call out. They also point out that if you need more than a hundred gigs, you basically contact support and they'll they'll crank you like to free for free. So interesting, interesting stuff and it is. It is for this European data act. They actually do mention it in the blog post that it's complies with the new European data act.

Alex Perkins: 25:51

Makes sense, all right, and then. So I'll, I'll take this one real quick, and then we'll hand it off the last one to you, tim. So another AWS thing. Well, I guess this is Amazon, right, not AWS.

Tim McConnaughy: 26:03

Yeah, this is Amazon.

Alex Perkins: 26:04

Okay, yeah, so this is from CNN business. Amazon invests four billion in anthropic AI in exchange for minority stake and further AWS integration. Again, not not surprising, right, with all the investments you know, like Azure did with open AI, it's crazy times that we're in where four billion is considered a small amount, but it's these. These AI companies are just printing money like crazy.

Chris Miles: 26:32

And it's again.

Alex Perkins: 26:33

it's not surprising, right? Amazon has to do something in the AI space, and I guess this is what they're going to continue to do with stuff like this.

Chris Miles: 26:41

Yeah, all right. My favorite takeaway from that was Corey Quinn's tweet about it.

Tim McConnaughy: 26:47

Corey Quinn always has the best takes.

Chris Miles: 26:49

So it was like the AWS article about anthropic mentions anthropic 40 times or something like that. And then the anthropic one mentioned AWS wants, or something like that, or Amazon, amazon, I should say Amazon.

Tim McConnaughy: 27:01

Yeah that's yeah, that's, there's definitely some. Yeah, anyway, love Corey.

Alex Perkins: 27:07

Love Corey.

Tim McConnaughy: 27:09

Corey is very good at the, at the hot takes and specifically at the saying the quiet part out loud, if you will. So yeah, that was great.

Chris Miles: 27:18

His intrusive thoughts always win, always.

Tim McConnaughy: 27:21

So true, all right. So let's let's finish off this week. I know we're running a little long and there was just so much to report on this week. So, for those of us who do a lot of network labbing in the cloud, there's a, you know, multiple traffic generators. A lot of people use the IPERV or what is it? Ixia, spiron I don't know if Spiron has a cloud version actually it's what I used to use but there's another traffic generator out there that's been out there for a while now called Astonado, and what's interesting this week is the creator.

Tim McConnaughy: 27:56

Let us know that the you can get up to. You can actually break over 100 gigs per second in the cloud. Now, of course, you're going to potentially pay for that with your you know, your virtual machine to do it, but you can even do it. You know, and we'll link the article in the show notes here but you can even get down to like 64 byte packet sizes, which is insane, like I can't even. That's hard to do in the data center, much less in a cloud, right, but it's pretty cool. It's an interesting seat to see the speed barriers like that broken, and so, yeah, we'll link it in the show notes and hopefully you can if you're into that. That's what you do, especially as a job, if you're doing benchmarking and stuff. Take a look, yeah, pretty cool.

Chris Miles: 28:43

Yeah, if you've ever worked with a voice over IP in your life, seeing throughput like that at 64, but that's what it is right, it's quite, it's quite traffic.

Alex Perkins: 28:55

All right, so that was it. That was the last of our articles. Thanks everyone for tuning in. You know. Share this around, hit that like button, subscribe everywhere you can. Again, if anybody wants to come on and talk about any of this stuff, we're more than happy to listen. Hit us up anywhere on socials email.

Chris Miles: 29:13

Follow us on TikTok. Oddly enough, our TikTok following is growing. Alex will not look at it. He's for some reason.

Tim McConnaughy: 29:21

He's so strong in his. That's true After. I have to say to the union you might not be able to follow Pretty soon.

Chris Miles: 29:28

I'm gonna be the only one that can look at it.

Tim McConnaughy: 29:30

Oh, there you go. Yeah, so Chris will have to maintain our TikTok after this.

Chris Miles: 29:36

But yeah follow us on TikTok, you know, we'll see where that goes. We're now more popular on TikTok than we are on Twitter, so that's something.

Alex Perkins: 29:45

It's because you gotta call it X man, that's, that's, I'm not. We're good, I want to.

Tim McConnaughy: 29:50

I hesitate to make the obligatory Fortnite reference as to why we're bigger on TikTok.

Chris Miles: 29:54

Oh yeah, we got shit for that already, so oh well, you almost you almost we almost finished.

Tim McConnaughy: 30:01

We were almost done. You just had to squeeze it in. I kind of had to. Now, right, somebody's gonna call us out for it Might as well, lead right in, pull it to Tim Cook.

Chris Miles: 30:09

And one more thing, yeah.

Alex Perkins: 30:12

All right with that, for real, we'll get out of here. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks for tuning in, Yep thanks.

Alex Perkins: 30:20

Hi everyone. It's Alex and this has been the Cables to Clouds podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. If you enjoyed our show, please subscribe to us in your favorite podcatcher, as well as subscribe and turn on notifications for our YouTube channel to be notified of all of our new episodes. Follow us on socials at Cables to Clouds. You can also visit our website for all of the show notes at CablesToCloudscom. Thanks again for listening and see you next time.