C2C Fortnightly News: The Rise of Daddy Networks - NC2C008

Alex Perkins: 0:00

The metadata network.

Tim McConnaughy: 0:01

The metadata network? Are we going to see a cycle back to the idea of out-of-band collection and distribution of collection?

Chris Miles: 0:10

Let's tokenize it now. We're going to have dad networks and it's data about data.

Tim McConnaughy: 0:14

I love it, dad networks. And then you're going to have to go ask dad.

Chris Miles: 0:19

Welcome to the Cables to Clouds podcast. Cloud adoption is on the rise and many network infrastructure professionals are being asked to adopt a hybrid approach as individuals who have already started this journey. We would like to empower those professionals with the tools and the knowledge to bridge the gap. Hello and welcome to another installment of the Cables to Clouds Fortnightly News Podcast. My name is Chris Miles at BGP Main on Twitter and, as always, I'm joined by Tim McConaughey at Juan Golbez on Twitter and Alex, who is at Bumps in the Wire on Twitter. Yeah, so we've not a ton of news coming in this week, but we definitely have some very interesting stuff that we that we want to cover here. So you know what I'm just going to. I'm just going to jump right into it. So we're going to kick off here with a big announcement, actually from Cisco, about a new product launch that they have coming out called Cisco HyperShield. So this is more or less the first installment of the isovalent acquisition coming into play here, one of the first eBPF enabled applications, or you know, products that we've seen come in from Cisco Some really cool stuff in here. So it's basically a HyperShield is kind of this distributed security architecture where they have these potentially agents. So an agent could be running on a particular, a particular workload um with the Tesseract security agent. So that kind of uses the EBPF um uh components in there to to enact with or interact with the kernel uh to implement security uh policies and things like that. They also have a I think there's a virtual container network enforcement point. They also talk about implementing in the future the Cisco Hypershield within server DPUs so that could be interacting on particular server endpoints on DPUs, which is pretty cool. And then again, I guess this is kind of the catch-all Whenever you can't do it on the actual workload, they're going to implement it on the switch layer. You can't do it on the actual workload, they're going to implement it on the switch layer, obviously being Cisco, they have these smart switches quote-unquote which will be running these Cisco HyperShield agents on the actual smart switches. So, like I said, this is a pretty cool distributed security architecture. So basically it sounds like you're building a policy using human-readable policy and things like that and distributing it to all your workloads that are running this Cisco HyperShield uh agent.

Chris Miles: 3:15

One of the really cool things that I will say that I saw in here was this uh, this concept of a shadow data plane which, if you're not familiar with, kind of like a blue green deployment, it kind of follows that same logic. So if you're doing any kind of major software upgrades or pushing new policy, traffic will start getting replicated to this what we call shadow data plane. So basically a secondary data plane, and while traffic's being sent through that secondary data plane, I assume the administrator is going to be able to basically vet that secondary data plane and make sure that you know the the intended nature that was required is actually happening and then that can be merged into the primary or main data plane. So that was. That was the first thing that I saw. That really stood out to me. There's a there's a little bit more in here about segmentation and things like that. But yeah, curious to hear from you guys how do you feel about this announcement?

Alex Perkins: 4:09

Yeah, all technical details aside, you definitely should read through this. The thing that kind of struck me most about this is I think the acquisition closed on Monday and this was released on Thursday was released on Thursday. I don't think I've ever seen Cisco move so quickly to get a product like a company. They bought an acquisition, integrated into a product so quickly and they do say I think it's not going to be. They said it's not GA until August of this year, but that's still insane. I've never seen Cisco move so fast.

Alex Perkins: 4:43

So, like Chris said, there's a lot of really cool things here. I'm just excited that they're actually taking this really cool technology and doing something with it immediately and it shows that they actually have plans for it. And there were three blogs just in the announcement. Like you never see that when a product is announced right, usually it's just like basically an infomercial of this is what we're going to do with. You know, we we came up with this new name and it's going to do all this cool stuff, but there's actual technical details in here. So I just it's really cool. Like, like Chris said, there's a lot of really interesting features and like product details about this, but also at the same time, it gives me optimism and hope that they're actually going to do something really big with this, with this acquisition.

Tim McConnaughy: 5:26

So that's what I'm excited for yeah, um, I want to know who got to name it. I want to know, did they have like a poll internally for like what should we name this new thing? Testaract and hypershield man? Yeah, man, it's like battlestar galactic up in here, man, I love it. Um, no, what's also is cool?

Tim McConnaughy: 5:45

Everything you said said is awesome. I mean, the idea of a distributed security solution is not exactly new anymore, especially in the cloud, but, as you mentioned, they're going to have it on Cisco smart switches as an enforcement point also right. So it sounds like you're going to get a true defense in depth, like distributed defense, in depth type of deployment, which is very cool. The whole shadow data plane of the red sorry, of the blue green testing model, where you know you keep the traffic moving but at the same time you can vet the new path and then flip over and do you know? That's awesome. This idea of an autonomous segmentation definitely shows where they're planning to bring in that learning, the learning model, ai, however you want to call it right when here's segmentation and you know we can figure out, translate business intent into segmentation over time in a phased approach. Anyone who has ever deployed ICE is very familiar with this idea that, hey, let's get this out here and turn it on never. So I'm curious to see how that actually happens, because everybody's always afraid to flip the switch at the end of the day. So I am curious to see how that goes.

Tim McConnaughy: 7:01

But no, this is a great announcement. I'm very excited about just what they're doing with it already. I'm excited to see what they plan to do with it. It's overdue. Distributed security is really the scalable security. I think we said it in one of our episodes with Steve McNaught all the way back in the beginning that we used to have to centralize security because we were unable to manage it at scale. But if you can manage it at scale, distributed security is the most scalable, most efficient way to do it. So this is awesome, yeah.

Alex Perkins: 7:32

Well, how long until AI, intent-based networking is like a new buzzword, right or something comes along that means that Zero trust.

Tim McConnaughy: 7:42

Don't forget the zero trust in there.

Chris Miles: 7:45

Give it like four years, we'll have a centralized cisco hyper shield model and then we'll we'll start to be talking about how that's. You know it's, but it's better to go centralized rather than distributed they come in cycle right back yeah, right, um, but no, that one thing that you know.

Chris Miles: 8:01

Obviously this is a cloud networking focused podcast, so I think this initially it sounds like they're leaning heavy into the Kubernetes side of security enforcement.

Chris Miles: 8:13

Obviously, with eBPF, that's pretty much bread and butter right there. One thing that really stands out to me at this is obviously this is very dependent on data collection from all these endpoints running these things, um, and you know, we have to assume that the reliability of that data, um getting to where it's collected, um, is probably going to be a new normal, right, if you're going to run ai against all this data about how, you know, if you want to do anomaly detection and things like that, obviously we're getting much more data out of something like this than we probably ever were. You know, especially when all of this is supposed to be, you know, in the end, encrypted MTLS et cetera. Right, I would assume you're getting a bit of this. Maybe you're getting it before encryption happens. So you, maybe you're getting a little bit more robust data. I't really know, I'm just making a guess. Um, but you know the distribute, the distribution of that data to get back to wherever this collection point is.

Alex Perkins: 9:11

I really wonder where that's going to come into play, but just something I'm thinking of top of mind that's a really good point, though, because I'm trying, I can't believe I'm forgetting what the product's called, but what's the licensing thing that cisco uses?

Tim McConnaughy: 9:22

it's like a smart licensing.

Alex Perkins: 9:24

But it's like a server that reaches out to. Oh no, but it's like right, like that model's kind of already there, where they have like a server that you can do on-prem or you can just send it directly to them.

Tim McConnaughy: 9:35

It's the smart license. That's a good point, Chris.

Alex Perkins: 9:37

Yeah, like it'll be interesting to see how that, how that collection, happens, for sure.

Tim McConnaughy: 9:41

And actually this brings up a whole other thing. I don't I know we don't necessarily get into it on the news, but you know this brings back reminds me a lot of the old management networks. You had to have management networks just because you needed to collect the telemetry out of band right. So now we're going to have so much data, just about the data, like riding the same pipe.

Alex Perkins: 10:03

The metadata network.

Tim McConnaughy: 10:06

Are we going to see a cycle back to the idea of out-of-band collection and distribution of collection?

Chris Miles: 10:13

Let's tokenize it now. We're going to have dad networks and it's data about data.

Tim McConnaughy: 10:16

I love it, dad networks. And then you're going to have to go ask dad Go ask dad I love it All right.

Chris Miles: 10:26

Well, like I said, that was the big one. Let's toss it over, is it you, alex? You're going to cover the next one.

Alex Perkins: 10:31

Yep, I got it All right.

Alex Perkins: 10:36

Next one yep, I got it um all right. So I got two pretty quick ones, um, ones from forbes. We actually we covered this uh two weeks ago in the last fortnightly news episode, but, um, hashicorp was basically suing uh open tofu. Um, there was a lot of debate on whether or not open tofu forked uh the code from hashicorp like right before they changed their license to BSL, and HashiCorp thought that they added a feature after the license change, so it seemed like maybe they had forked again, like later, after the license change had already happened. This is basically OpenTofu's response, where, you know, of course they're going to say we didn't do anything wrong. We vehemently disagree that we, we did anything like that. And I think, um, tim, you were saying this earlier. I think they're making the point that you're only going to have so many features in here, right? So eventually they're going to release something that looks similar anyway. I think that was a big part of their argument.

Alex Perkins: 11:29

Um, what was weird to me is one of these articles that had the code in it. I don't pretend to know you know all the intricacies of how this code is written, but when I looked at it it looked almost the exact same. So I don't know what they were trying to show like. Why, what was different? But to the completely untrained person like I, I thought it was it wasn't evidence of difference. To me it looked the exact same. So you guys got anything to add on that one.

Tim McConnaughy: 11:53

Yeah, so Go is a static typing language, which for programming means basically like it's. So, like Python is what they call duck typing, where if it looks like a duck and what talks like a duck, then it is a duck. So you can infer the way you build the code or whatever kind of infers, like what type of of uh, what type of uh objects you're baking. But go, go is statically typed, which means that you have to be very declarative. You have to say like this is this right, kind of like.

Tim McConnaughy: 12:23

I think java is like that and c is like I'm not a programmer, right, but my understanding that that's the big difference. So open tofu's argument here is basically look, we're both using go and we're both using the same code base, like if we built anything, it's going to end up looking like what Hashi has done. So the proof is going to be a little bit in the pudding there on like, not so much the static typing or how close the code itself looks, but there'll be fingerprints somewhere. People are better than we are, hopefully, can untangle that. But I do kind of understand where they're coming from, saying like, hey, it's Go, it's statically typed, it's pretty rigid, there's not that many and we're all, and you know, we forked like a couple months ago, right, so we're basically working off the same code base.

Alex Perkins: 13:06

Yeah, I think the fork was in November, so I mean, it's only not even six months ago, I guess.

Tim McConnaughy: 13:12

Yeah, I guess by now. Yeah, but I mean right, so there hasn't been that much time for divergence. So you know, smarter people than us are going to have to figure that one out. We're just going to keep following it. But I can at least understand to that degree.

Chris Miles: 13:25

Not only that, I mean when it was forked. Just keep in mind, these are a lot of the same developers that were already writing the hash corp code or writing the open tofu it's not like.

Alex Perkins: 13:32

It's not like it changed hands completely and it's a new, new ways of thinking about.

Chris Miles: 13:36

It's the same fucking people doing it, you know. So it's I. I mean, this is all to me just a the hashicorp trying to kill open tofu at its root in its early days before it can kind of grow into something that they really have to compete with um, and I understand why people are really questioning how the hashCorp's ethics in this situation. You know it doesn't look great in my opinion.

Alex Perkins: 13:58

All right, the next one. So this is actually a press release from Aviatrix. Right, chris and Tim both work there, but this is actually a pretty cool product announcement. Basically, right, it's an Aviatrix Network Insights API. Anybody that has worked in even a single cloud will have this issue, but especially multi-cloud right. Observability has always been a huge issue. You guys could speak to the technical details of this obviously way better than me. Being allowed to take this API and give all the information that you guys have about the different flows and visibility stuff that you guys see, that you know you wouldn't get natively and I think what? So this integrates with it. Looks like Prometheus, datadog, rafauna and New Relic is what they're showing in the-.

Chris Miles: 14:50

Pretty much anything Prometheus-based.

Alex Perkins: 14:52

Yeah, Okay, I mean this is a really great release, honestly I think, like I said, I mean observability is just huge. I don't think people realize how much observability gets missing when you start trying to do networking, especially across and between clouds, Like it just gets way out of control very, very quickly. So this is a really cool release. You guys want to add anything to this one?

Tim McConnaughy: 15:16

So I mean obviously elephant in the room, right, chris, and I obviously work for Aviatrix, so you know I'm not going to stand here and shill. Having said that, I do think that, just generally, not just Aviatrix but all of the MCN vendors need to provide customers with as much visibility as possible to show the value of MCN, especially since the CSPs are limited in what they can expose at the hyperscaler like scale right To be able to. They can't give every customer like every single bit of data or they crash and burn, right. So if you're using, like an Aviatrix data plane or or any other vendors you know, data plane or whatnot, you need to have open APIs so that those customers can come in and get that data and visualize it. You know in whatever visual tool that they want.

Chris Miles: 16:09

So but yeah, I think it's cool that it allows the application owners to continue using the tools that they're very familiar with. So, you know, like, if you've met app teams that work in the cloud, they're very, you know, comfortable using things like New Relic, things like Refana Datadog to monitor the health and the status of their applications. And you know, since we have a product that builds a network data plane, now we're just adding API, basically capabilities in where they can keep using those tools and they know the status of the network, you know, between their tiers and things like that. So, yeah, I've had a lot of customers asking about this and I think it'll be really cool. I'm excited to see where it goes.

Alex Perkins: 16:46

Yeah, that's a great point too. The tooling right Common tooling, I think, more companies instead of, you know, siloing the cloud, which is what none of us want. I think kind of finding that more commonality between all the different teams is a really good thing.

Chris Miles: 17:00

Yeah, strong focus on mean time to innocence as well.

Alex Perkins: 17:04

So you know the more you can expose to your app teams.

Chris Miles: 17:09

The more they know it's not the network, the less likely they are to come to you and say that it is so you know. Hopefully that helps in that regard as well.

Tim McConnaughy: 17:17

Yeah, I mean, and if it is, you can hopefully get ahead of it and then fix an incident before it happens, right? So that's the idea. So NetOps teams will appreciate this for the same reasons.

Alex Perkins: 17:30

Awesome. All right, Tim, you want to take the next one?

Tim McConnaughy: 17:33

Yeah, no worries. So we have an article here from ITWire and it's from Akamai. So Akamai is now adding a bunch of the new NVIDIA GPUs to its offer and just basically anywhere you would use GPUs within a CDN, they're going to have it available. So this is not a very I would say not a hugely in-depth technical article. I mean, they actually go quite in-depth on literally what you can do with the GPUs, which is, you know, media transcoding, gen, ai, like again, think of like CDN style stuff where you can deliver from the edge, essentially, and all of that is being available through Akamai now. But yeah, there's not a lot of depth to the article. It's just Akamai saying like, hey, we've got all of these NVIDIA GPUs and they're going to be available to you, to customers, to utilize for all their kind of edge CDN applications.

Alex Perkins: 18:29

Yeah, I mean it's. This is an AI enabled CDN right Like. This is basically just stuff, more AI into things, and now it's in your CDN as well, which no one should be surprised by, but it does. It does allow for some cool things that I think might not have been seen before. You know, companies that aren't aren't doing CDNs. Okay, and then the second article.

Tim McConnaughy: 18:49

I have is this one's kind of goofy actually? The second article I have is this one's kind of goofy actually. It's from a website called whattechcom I don't know how you would pronounce it W-H-A-T-E-C-H, so I guess, what tech, just like what, and then tech. So it's a market research article, if you will, about MCN, about multi-cloud networking. Article, if you will, about MCN, about multi-cloud networking. It specifically says Intelligent Cloud Network Platform Market Survey Report, along with statistics and this is the weirdest part of the article it includes that they're including forecasts in this report out to 2032, which I am just lost on.

Alex Perkins: 19:32

You heard that right 2032.

Tim McConnaughy: 19:35

Bold statement I don't know how anybody could pretend to forecast anything even a year from now, much less eight of them from now, so I'm lost on that idea. I'm not going to put in my data and get the report, though, but we'll have it in the show notes if you want to take a look at the report and download it. But the actual article itself, just well, honestly, it's a little high level because they want you to, you know, to obviously to invest your data and get the report itself. But what I found specifically interesting about this article was it mentioned the quote unquote leaders in multi-cloud networking, such as Cisco and Juniper and Huawei, and none of the actual VMware VMware, right VMware and completely missing from this article were any of the actual multi-cloud networking vendors. So yeah, so I mean that was also had a scratch on her head, or at least had me scratching my head on this one.

Tim McConnaughy: 20:31

I don't know what to make of it because, again, I haven't downloaded the report, but if the upfront data is to be understood, it seems a little tone deaf or maybe not tone deaf is the wrong word just a little out of touch perhaps. So I think. But yeah anyway, so go ahead and take a look at the article and see what you guys think. I don't know. Do you guys have any thoughts on this one?

Alex Perkins: 20:53

yeah, I do. I mean um, first of all, I just realized that it says vmware, right, and it's like when was this written? Because vmware doesn't exist anymore.

Chris Miles: 21:02

It's right by broadcom yeah, I will.

Alex Perkins: 21:07

The only thing I'm gonna say is a counterpoint here is they're not specifically talking about mcn. They're saying it's everything. It's like iot, it's like verticals such as healthcare, manufacturing, smart cities right, it's like holistic, like network platform with intelligence on it, but that includes cloud and MCN companies as well. So, tim, yes, why does it only say these companies that everyone knows and not startups that are doing stuff in this area or other more well-known companies in here, right, let alone the whole 2032 thing. Who the hell knows what's happening in eight years? I mean, tim might be retired in eight years.

Chris Miles: 21:48

God, I hope so.

Alex Perkins: 21:50

Oh man, it's just like this whole article is just complicated.

Chris Miles: 21:54

It's funny, but, like you said, alex, they call out that this is the global intelligent cloud network platform market is segmented into software-defined networking and cloud networking. Those are the two buckets they're putting these classifications in. And hey, you know what? Maybe what they're saying is that they're forecasting out eight years. Maybe they don't predict that any of us are going to be around in eight years. Maybe we are going to be shit.

Chris Miles: 22:17

The bed Involve and acquire yeah maybe that's what they're saying, but no, who we are going to be, we're going to shit the bed, involve and acquire. Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe that's what they're saying, but no, it's. It's funny. I, I, I, I hesitate to say that it's tone deaf, because one thing I will say, working for one of these multi-cloud networking companies specifically, I will tell you one of our biggest and toughest barriers to entry is just market exposure people knowing who we are and what we do.

Chris Miles: 22:41

So maybe this is a product of that. Maybe the people that they're talking to doing this research with don't know who we are, don't know that these particular companies, like you know, like Aviatrix, like Alkira, Prosimo, all of the all the people in this space actually exist in what they do. So I wonder if it's just a product of that. But, like you said, I'm not putting in my data to get the full report. It does look like it's sectioned out into chapters and there might be some good stuff in there, but maybe one of the listeners?

Tim McConnaughy: 23:13

yeah, please, would be very interested. Yeah, I'd love to see a copy of this. And again, the people that they listed, the specific companies that they listed as the quote-unquote top companies, make me think that the actual data that they're going to have in the report is probably going to be a little bit out of touch. Personally, yeah, maybe. And again, I wouldn't have harped on the MCN piece, except it literally says Global Intelligent Cloud Network Platform Market.

Chris Miles: 23:40

So anyway, so for what that's worth, what if your management plan is in the cloud? Does that count?

Alex Perkins: 23:47

So Meraki basically.

Chris Miles: 23:49

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know, right, it's hard to tell.

Tim McConnaughy: 23:53

Or like Nile or one of those, right, so yeah, totally Okay, so yeah, so that's this one, I think. I think, uh, chris, you're gonna close this out here, right?

Chris Miles: 24:05

yes, so I apparently am the funny guy.

Chris Miles: 24:08

I get to close up with two of the funny to the funny articles. Uh, these are. These are. These are both pretty comical. Uh, one is a callback to something that we talked about an early but before that we have an article from the Register talking about a company, Stability AI, which is a Gen AI company. Apparently they ran out of money to pay their bills for the GPUs that they're renting from AWS. I think it says something like they put in $11 million or something, whereas they were spending like well above that, and it basically caused a lot of turmoil. Just kind of a funny article we thought they'd throw in there to kind of show the kind of cost of doing business with these AI workloads and funding the GPU things and things like that. So I don't know if you guys have any other things to add. It was just a funny one.

Tim McConnaughy: 25:03

They should have talked to Corey Quinn about fixing their cloud bill. Oh man, it's rough, right, they were spending $99 million, not just with AWS, but $99 million between that and GCP, and I forget what the third company was, coreweave, yeah, so, to be clear though, when we talk about stable diffusion, we're talking about stable diffusion. So Stability, ai is stable diffusion, which is the Dolly and all of that, right, the graphic ones that generate or print pictures and stuff. So that's a very well known product.

Tim McConnaughy: 25:38

The article specifically mentions that the I don't know if it's the CEO, that the I guess I don't know what the CEO or whatever, the owner, I'm not sure, I don't know the guy well enough to say but he has failed to monetize. Essentially, the article is like this person has failed to monetize the product and so bringing in 11 million, spending like 99 million and not able to spend 99 million. So they're out of money, and it's just so much to say about. First of all, like okay, so we all know that AI is going to the moon, but like, actually, it's actually finding ending up being a little tough to monetize. You know, to that level some of the stuff, right? So let's not all quit our day jobs just yet. And then, of course, the old saw about. You know, running everything in the cloud can be quite expensive.

Chris Miles: 26:24

Yeah, purely speculation from me as well. I'd be curious. I don't know if they really touch on in this article what percentage of what they're paying is related to GPU versus data transfer versus storage, because obviously, you know, image creation is going to be based on a large collection of images, so there's probably tons and tons of data being stored about where they're getting their source from, and it makes me wonder if this not only are companies failing to monetize it appropriately. I wonder if the CSPs are actually going to come out with more fine-tuned products in those categories for like storage and transfer and things like that. I could definitely see that coming, but yeah, who knows?

Alex Perkins: 27:08

Yeah, I mean I got the article pulled up. So just some actual numbers like 153 million between that's what they were spending, 99 of that was compute in the cloud and then 54 million in wages and operating expenses and they were only bringing in 11 million in sales. So to me this really goes to conversations that a lot of us have been having about AI and what's the use case? There's all this money being poured into it. This company was valued at a billion dollars at one point. All this money is being poured in, but how do you monetize it? Is this AI actually usable? Does it actually have a use case?

Tim McConnaughy: 27:47

Is there a product.

Alex Perkins: 27:49

Yeah, and we keep seeing this stuff that all this money was poured in, but these companies aren't able to monetize the AI products that are coming out. So I expect to see a lot more of this. This happening pretty quickly.

Tim McConnaughy: 28:02

Yeah, Especially with the VC money not being as cheap anymore to get you know, with the interest rates and everything. Yeah, I expect the bottom to fall out a lot on a lot of these, and I think that already is happening with with several of these.

Chris Miles: 28:15

Yeah, no kidding, all right, lastly so, if All right. Lastly so, if you recall, I think this might have been on the first episode we ever did with doing the news. I think so. It was before the news was on its own standalone episode, so it was when we were baking it into other episodes. Alex will find the previous episode and put it into the show notes or something like that.

Chris Miles: 28:38

Um, but we had, I remember, we saw um this product launched for something called humane AI, which was a wearable uh AI pin that you could basically wear, and it was supposed to, you know, do all these things to enhance your daily life. Um, well, we have an article from tech crunch where, uh, so very famous YouTuber, uh Marques Brownlee, or um MKBHDbhd, um as he's often known, uh, finally got his hands on a uh one of these humane ai pins and just absolutely torched it. Uh, and and the. The article is kind of based around whether or not, you know, bad reviews are killing companies, which is just a completely asinine. To me. That's such a terrible. Yeah, just like one of the worst takes I've ever seen. But you know, I mean the video that he put out about this product was literally called it was like the worst product I've ever reviewed for now, uh, and you know I actually watched the video.

Chris Miles: 29:31

He did a pretty, I'd say, a pretty honorable job at the beginning, kind of talking about the specs, you know the, the composition of the hardware and how it was, you know, very well done, but the execution was just absolutely awful. A lot of the things that he was. You know who would have thought? Who would have thought that this was either not useful or worthless in some scenarios. But, yeah, definitely, take a look at the article. I guess they're also kind of correlating that he did this with Fisker as well, with their, um, electric vehicles, um, nah, dude, I think he got to the level of fame that he is at because he's good at doing this stuff and you know, if he, you know I don't think he should have to be a shill, but they were saying that it was. He was not. You know he was not acting uh, accordingly by saying or act. He was distasteful by saying that this is the worst product ever, just because he has 18 million subscribers, and things like that.

Tim McConnaughy: 30:26

Yeah, I think it's weird that and, to be clear, the article we're linking the TechCrunch article, does cover the actual wearable, but the actual article we're linking has more to do with the backlash against MKB for for his review and then, just kind of broadly, the quote-unquote power that reviewers have over companies.

Tim McConnaughy: 30:52

But here's the thing like if, unless that person, unless any person that's doing the review, is going out of their way to nitpick every little thing, Like you can tell when somebody hates something so bad that they will just like torch something and they like scorched earth and that's, they have an ax to grind, as we would say. Right, Like you know that and you get, you know to have a take it with a grain of salt. Right, I felt like he was very fair and you know what, at the end of the day, like if it sucks, it sucks and you know what do we want? The opposite, where people, where he'd just be called a shill, you know like if, if they give him money or something like I don't know, I I don't think it's the responsibility of a reviewer to protect the livelihood of people who are putting out a bad product.

Alex Perkins: 31:34

No, it's not at all. I mean it's. It's ridiculous to think that, like I mean. It's ridiculous to think that, like I mean, is he supposed to just like you said, is he supposed to shill? Is he supposed to not be honest? The reason he got to where he did is because he's sincere and honest about reviews. It's not because he's just selling. Oh, humane sponsored this. So let me say they're an awesome product. Like if your product sucks, it sucks. Don't release a beta product. Like that's what a lot of the. If you watch the video and you look at the comments on YouTube, a lot of people are saying the same thing. It's like this is a product that's in beta and it costs $700 and a monthly subscription. Why?

Tim McConnaughy: 32:10

Get a focus group or something man. Get a focus group. Don't sell this shit. It's just crazy. You can't blame reviewers.

Alex Perkins: 32:17

That's just such a terrible take. I mean I don't yeah.

Chris Miles: 32:20

Yeah, I think the immediate call out was the clickbait title that he put. You know, this is the worst product I've ever reviewed, which you know it's youtube dude.

Tim McConnaughy: 32:27

Like there are so many roles right, like if you want to, if you want to stand out on youtube, and this is, this is, and we could go into a whole thing about social media, because we ourselves get into this crap. But oh my god, you simply have to play that game to exist in social media and it is what it is, and yet you can hate it up, down and sideways. But if you want to exist on a social media platform and get any kind of engagement, like for you know, good, bad or ugly, that's how it is.

Chris Miles: 32:53

I treat it like a credit score man. Like you don't want to have to be involved, you could very much not want to be involved, but you have to play the game to have to be involved. You, you could very much not want to be involved, but you have to play the game Like you have to. You know, do the dumb shit that you don't necessarily agree with at times, or or not necessarily agree with, maybe just want to do in general. Eventually you'll, you might get somewhere.

Alex Perkins: 33:11

So I mean watch the video, because it's like I mean he goes into so much.

Chris Miles: 33:15

Very, it's very fair.

Tim McConnaughy: 33:17

Very fair.

Alex Perkins: 33:18

He goes into like oh, it's heating up because of the fabric that I'm wearing, right, every little detail he's talking about, and there's something wrong with every detail. What is he supposed to say? What conclusion is he supposed to come to?

Tim McConnaughy: 33:30

I like the one where he's like he's outside, he's like there's any light whatsoever. This projector doesn't work, which anybody should have been able to figure out, like the people. The testing that created the thing should have been like huh, what happens if the sun is out with our laser projector? No, there's no sun anyway.

Chris Miles: 33:45

All right, yeah, with that, let's wrap it up. So thanks everyone for listening. This has been another installment of the Capels to Clouds news podcast. That's becoming a very big mouthful to say. You know, it's probably easier to talk about the actual Fortnite. Oh, we got to squeeze it in. Thanks a lot, guys. Thanks for listening.

Chris Miles: 34:08

If you have any feedback on the show whatsoever, we'd love to hear from you. So please reach out to us on any social platform that we're on, at Cables2Clouds or Cables2Clouds at gmailcom. Please join the. It's All About the Journey Discord. Get involved with the community. We are very active in there. We'd love to see more people join and getting involved. So with that, we'll wrap it up and thanks a lot for your time. We'll talk to you next week. Bye-bye, hi everyone. It's Chris and this has been the Cables to Clouds podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. If you enjoyed our show, please subscribe to us in your favorite podcatcher as well as subscribe and turn on notifications for our YouTube channel to be notified of all our new episodes. Follow us on socials at Cables to Clouds. You can also visit our website for all of the show notes at CablesToCloudscom. Thanks again for listening and see you next time.