Welcome And Meet Spud

Tim 0:13

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Cables Clouds podcast. I am your co-host this week, Tim McConahane, and of course with me is my other co-host, Katherine McNamara. Chris couldn't make it today, so we're gonna just go ahead and introduce our guest, who is uh okay, I I gotta ask, Spud or James, which would you prefer to be referred to?

James Terrebonne 0:38

Well, most people in the industry at this point call me Spud, so let's just do Spud.

Tim 0:42

All right, all right. So um Spud, Spud is with us. Uh go ahead and introduce yourself. So I think this is your first time on the podcast, so uh our our listeners don't know you yet.

James Terrebonne 0:55

Yeah. Hello everyone. So uh my government name is James Tierbone. Uh most people in the industry know me as Spud or uh SpudSec on social media. Uh I am a cybersecurity engineer uh with Big Telecom. Um and uh I have extensive experience with both uh federal contracting, uh working for various federal agencies, as well as being unemployed in the last couple of months because of uh the current uh tech industry nightmare that is Jopani. So yeah, uh it's good to be on here. Thank you for inviting me.

Katherine 1:30

Thanks for being here, uh Spud. It's awesome. I've known you for a couple of years now. We met at DEF CON a few years ago, and I've you know kind of had a front row seat to some of the uh difficulties in the job industry that you've had to experience, unfortunately. Um, I thought it would be make a great uh episode to kind of talk about that because um just a little background for the folks here. Spud likes to very much underplay himself, like uh underestimate himself, at least as far as intro, but he is actually extremely experienced over like 10 years of experience, does had did done some amazing work uh you know, uh from federal the the federal contracting point of view, IoT security, uh ICS security, things like that. And um, you know, unfortunately was not spared the struggle, you know, of trying to find a new cybersecurity job when uh you know layoffs happened. So, you know, I think it's an interesting story to talk about what like he experienced, what he went through, and uh and and how he ultimately ended up uh uh landing a job.

Getting Laid Off In Contracting

James Terrebonne 2:35

Yeah, so uh it's been it's so just kind of quick background on that. So back in uh early February-ish, uh I was let go from my federal contracting job with the Secret Service. I was there for about three years working uh their critical systems protection team. I had a lot of fun on it. We did a lot of work, including during the uh 2024 presidential camp or presidential election, which was hell on earth, but that's the whole thing. Um, and then I was thinking, you know, given this wasn't the first time I was let go from a job, you know, contracts end all the time, they don't get renewed, or you know, companies don't pick you up afterwards. It it happens all the time in the industry. It's kind of one of the perks of it is that you get let go, but you can usually find a job. I think the longest I was unemployed prior to this was back in uh 2017. And that was only because I was moving from Louisiana where I grew up to Virginia to start my start um my current my last couple of jobs. And uh that was only because of move and stuff. But um, this was probably the longest I was unemployed in a while. I didn't get this current job until basically beginning of June. So um, and I was very shocked at how kind of insane it was. I I don't know exact numbers, but I think I applied for like God, um like

Hundreds Of Applications And Ghosting

James Terrebonne 4:00

two, three hundred jobs. Uh, I got quite a lot of interviews. Like, like I think I did about 20 to 25 interviews. I'm not talking about like the cruder ones where it's just like the the vibe check, but I'm talking like actual interviews. And they'd all get ghost, uh, they'd all ghost me. Um, and this was through connections, you know, Kat and our friends, you know, I'm very grateful for everyone who helped me through this. It was just a nightmare. And there's one job that still sticks out to me where um the guy was part of my local DEF CON group that I'm very active in. Shout out to DC 540, Northern Virginia's number two hacking group. Uh uh and he was also part of the same makerspace I was. Shout out to Unallocated in Miller Show, Maryland. You know, I gotta wrap my domies. Um, and uh, you know, and we had a great connection where we we had like an informal meeting at B-sides uh Charm City in Baltimore. Uh and then we, you know, and we had the formal interview, all the rounds and stuff. And then not only does he do I get rejected from it, but it they and I don't know why the recruiter told me this, but she told me that um they will that they selected another person, but they rescoped the position to give them more money. And I'm like, why are you telling me this? Uh like rubbing salt in the wound there.

Tim 5:24

Yeah, it sounds really weird for yeah, you didn't get the job, but it pays more.

Katherine 5:28

Yeah, and the person who did get hired, we we scoped them to give them more money, don't worry.

James Terrebonne 5:34

Yeah, it it it I I lost, I I honestly lost my shit because I was like, I was like, I'm fine getting rejected. It happens before, you know. It it's but oh, but it was just it was kind of the the straw that broke the camel's back because I think Kat remembers kind of how like when that happened, I was like just completely devastated. Like I was I was like shit, I'm screwed financially and just mentally, because I was just like uh because before this, you know, CA and friends had referred me to tons of jobs, you know. I had big companies reach out to me and they're like, oh my god, you're amazing. How are you still unemployed? You should have been hired the moment you got let go. And then, you know, after one interview or two, it's not even that I get rejected, I get ghosted. And so um uh I posted a TikTok video about it. Uh what I wouldn't say went viral, but it was surprisingly well received in the community. I got like tens of thousands of news and stuff. And uh, you know, that, you know, and for perspective, I live in Northern Virginia. For those that should know, Ashburn's about a half hour away from me. We're you know, the data center capital of the world. You know, Silicon Valley is one thing, but this is basically the OG Silicon Valley, because this is where a lot of tech companies kind of started before they shipped it out west. Um, and so it shouldn't be that hard to get a tech job here. And yet, you know, that was when I realized how bad it was that I had how, especially with all these layoffs coming in. It's just, you know, and it was well received, and especially with a lot of newer entries, uh new newer entry level people coming in, they were just so kind of frustrated and stuff. And for a while I was like, and I realized like, okay, the you know, this kind of needs to be talked about. Sorry for the ring, you know.

Katherine 7:22

No, no, that's that's perfectly fine. And and and not only where you are in Virginia, you're like a train ride away from DC and a bunch of other places that are pretty good for tech or like contracting work for like you know, federal and government agencies. So it's it shouldn't be that hard, like in those like being so close to so many metropolitan areas to be able to find a job. But you know, that's troubling that it was.

Clearances Do Not Guarantee Interviews

James Terrebonne 7:50

Yeah, no, like I have a clearance, and um, for obvious reasons I won't mention what it is, but you know, I have a clearance that basically like and it's it's one of the clearances that's high enough where it's like but you know, the recruiter should be reaching out to me. It shouldn't be me reaching out to them, kind of deal. And um, uh, and even that it was a struggle. And, you know, not to get into the whole political stuff, but like, you know, honestly, a lot of it was because of kind of the cuts that have happened, some of them abruptly more than others, but um and a lot of agencies are just doing hiring freezes and stuff, or are just like they're they're bogged down because they don't have the resources anymore that they used to. And even with the contractors, like the big contract firms, they're having the same issues. It's like we can't get funding. And so, and even private sector, um, I got very lucky, and uh a mutual friend of ours, her friend referred me to my tele this to big telecom, and uh uh that was finally like I think I got hired within uh like four days. Um I would not recommend that.

Katherine 8:56

You're like, oh, I'm submitting my application now to being like boom.

James Terrebonne 9:00

Yeah, like I think like Wednesday and then Monday was my first day. Um so um, but you know, it's someone like me who doesn't have any college experience, you know, it was a college dropout, uh, who, you know, worked as hard, you know. I kind of understand like seeing the frustration of a lot of younger guys who who the younger people who are really who really want to get into this industry and who have been struggling. And so um I've been really trying hard to kind of like express kind of and even through TikTok though I have haven't been really consistent about it, um, kind of explaining, you know, what you know about like, you know, don't don't kick yourself for this, you know, it's not your fault, and all that, and just kind of helping, making sure that, you know, we all get through this, because uh I think it's absolutely nuts.

Tim 9:51

So like basically what we're talking about right now is someone who has you know 10 plus years of experience working for you know that I assume one of the probably one of the highest clearances available. Um honestly in the right place, at the right time, like literally all the boxes have been checked, has a good network, use the network, and still was out of a job for you know four or five months or whatever to hundreds of applications. I mean, what chance what chance has someone you know entering this career uh got at the and it's not just cybersecurity, right? Cybersecurity, it's it's it's all of the tech industry. It's I I don't think people are truly grasping how on fire things really are.

James Terrebonne 10:41

Yeah, no, I think um, especially since I've done hiring processes all the time, you know, not as a hiring manager, but just there with the in the interviews asking questions. Um, you know, I think part of it is not just the, you know, the mass layouts have not come. Like that's definitely been, you know, I'm trying to compete with, you know, Microsoft and meta employees who have degrees from, you know, MIT or Duke or wherever. And you know, I'm just this lowly Cajun boy who just has a high school education and a couple of certifications who has experience in years of experience.

Tim 11:14

Like that sure. I would think.

James Terrebonne 11:20

Sure. Well, and what I mean is also like experience plus the degrees and stuff, and you know, just like money, they're my resume is excellent. And you know, I do admit that there are people who will uh just out compete me, not because, you know, of anything special, just because for lack of a better description, they're better than me. Um, but uh it's it's been but I think also part of the problem is the recruitment process because while this isn't specific to you know the current situation, or while this isn't new to the current situation, it's definitely been kind of a more post-pandemic situation.

HR Breakdowns And Auto Rejections

James Terrebonne 11:55

Um I'm not gonna name specifics, but um a lot of people know this rant. Kat knows this rant uh very well. But I worked I was applying for a big uh big infrastructure company uh that starts with an A. And um, you know, the hiring manager loved me. Uh it was through a mutual friend through my DEF CON group. Um, you know, I went through four rounds of interviews. I I had the clearance they needed. Um, you know, it was an amazing job, great pay, huge sign on bonus, yada yada yada. Um and the hiring manager's like, great, we'll send you the job offer either today or tomorrow. And so in government contracting, the there's a kind of one process with that where you you verify your clearance. It's basically you give a security officer that the company has your personal identifiable information. Um and they just go look it up in the the special systems and say, Yeah, this guy has this, it's been adjudicated, you know, blah, blah, blah, uh, this time around and all that. And so I was there's a brief moment where I was going this back and forth with the recruiter room saying, like, I don't know my adjudication date, but the security officer should know that in um like they should just it should pop up immediately in the system. And instead of like checking or really giving any updates, like she kept saying, Oh, well, because you don't have the clearance we made, which I did, you know, we're not gonna forward you or we're not gonna we're we'll find you another position. I'm like, no, I you don't understand. And it this back and forth got to the point where um where I don't think I'm actually banned from the company, but anytime I apply, I get basically auto-rejected. Um, even when I talk to recruiters directly or get direct referrals, it's just like I'll get auto-rejected the moment I apply for the application. I think part of the problem is that the and this isn't specific to tech at all, but like the HR recruitment side of things is just completely utterly broken, especially with a lot of these AI tools that sort of finding out what's like working and all that.

Tim 13:53

Well, you got the one side you got AI providing a landslide of applicants, and on the other side you got AI quote unquote curating the applicants that get through. So it's really like the whole system's busted on both sides, and then real people can't get through the noise, you know?

Katherine 14:12

Yeah, and then we have those AI tools that are uh look pre-vetting resumes. And I think uh most of us have talked about this before, like or have seen this before, but like usually the requirements on a tech job are like a nice to have list, not really hard set. Um, but when you put into an AI tool, it tends to try to make it hard set. And you if you look at some of the requirements on a on a job uh job listing, like it's usually like a unicorn of like to have that unique of like 10 different bullet points of experience and uh knowledge. So people usually realize after enough time, hey, you know, I'm not probably gonna find that unicorn with that exact amount of experience. But AI is not like that. It's like, no, this is what they really want. So I'm gonna look for those things. And if I don't find them or whatever, it's going in the in the reject bucket.

James Terrebonne 15:04

Yeah, no, and especially with these entry-level jobs, you know, I totally see where where a lot of people are struggling and feel for them because uh, you know, with with a lot of these these entry-level jobs um uh have been uh just ridiculous in the requirements.

Entry-Level Requirements Get Unreal

James Terrebonne 15:20

I know uh uh there's one major airline based in Atlanta. I I I'm not gonna name names, but I'll give hints. Uh uh where I saw one entry level job for just like a a sist uh like a no, it was a it was a security analyst like sock position. Um they wanted five years of experience plus a SANS certification. And five years is okay, whatever, you know, that's ridiculous for an entry-level job, but you know, what that's not an entry-level anymore. Yeah, but like eight grand. Like no entry-level person is gonna have eight grand out of their pocket. Um, and whoever and if they got it through a company, they're probably not leaving that company for a while.

Katherine 16:03

But uh uh but um it's not just eight grand, it's the eight grand for the course plus a thousand dollars for the actual test.

James Terrebonne 16:10

But it's a thousand now? I remember it used to be like six or seven hundred.

Katherine 16:13

No, it's a thousand dollars for each attempt on the the SANS test, but I think that they also increased the boot camp prices to eight thousand nine hundred. So it's like you the entry-level person have to have ten grand because to have gotten that too.

James Terrebonne 16:25

And at that point, you might as well just go to college. Like you're like, that's not like you get it, like it's still like it's getting starting to get to that point.

Tim 16:34

Yeah, you're starting to ask that question.

James Terrebonne 16:36

That's basically that's basically like tuition money. You know, if a college is gonna a college experience is gonna be more fulfilling, in my opinion.

Tim 16:43

If you get a if you get a two-year degree, I think 10 grand is right in that ballpark, probably, depending on where you go. I mean, not a four-year university or something, but yeah.

James Terrebonne 16:50

Either way, like even just it would still pay for for some college. Like it's still more better than that's what they're doing.

Tim 16:55

It starts to get silly.

James Terrebonne 16:56

But it's it's you know, uh, I I've interviewed a lot of entry-level people. I've also interviewed, you know, and um my whole take has always been with with just entry-level people is not what you know, it's how you know how you can learn and grow. So, like obviously, my interview questions have always been, you know, like like kind of those broad, just kind of seeing where their thinking is kind of mindsets where I give them kind of a general problem and like secure like related to the job, and figure out how they solve it. Not necessarily give a complete correct answer, but just how you know where their mind's going with it, because I get those all the time. I think they're they're great, they're great. Uh, and then you know, obviously meds are just like, okay, what have you learned in your entry-level jobs? And then obviously the the senior positions are more like, you know, are you a god in this or got a god or goddess in this? Like, can you solve every single problem in the world? Obviously not, but still, it's just um um, you know, and I saw when I saw the comments, it's just like a lot of these entry-level people just out of college or are trying to pivot into the industry, have been struggling, and you know, and it sucked that I couldn't really give them a lot of advice other than just like you just gotta keep pushing. Um, you know, you'll once you once you're in, you're in, but it's it's a struggle now. And it's it was for during my when I was applying, there was a couple of jobs um that I would just uh apply where I was like knew the person directly, you know, my resume wasn't even applied, like I didn't even apply yet, like I was just slipped under the hiring manager's desk kind of thing, or slipped on the hiring manager's desk.

Tim 18:38

Yeah.

James Terrebonne 18:39

And you know, and then like a few weeks later we hear that um they, you know, they're basically about to go under because they ran out of uh Vector Capital money and stuff. Like the the industry is on fire for sure. Um not like in tech as a whole, but especially in cybersecurity. And um it's just it's it's you know, I I think part of the problem too is just uh, you know, I don't I don't think uh what's the matter thing? It's it's a this industry is oversaturated right now. There's just too many people competing for the same thing, and they're they're taking cut, you know, they're kind of taking mutual customers away from each other and and just causing each other to have less customers instead of more customers. Or so um yeah.

AI Hiring Filters And The Missing Ladder

Katherine 19:25

Yeah, it's also interesting with the lack of uh and like I actually do think AI has affected some of those entry-level jobs, like people putting chatbots and things in place to do, you know, level one help desk and things like that, uh, and and trying to steer away from having more technical people helping uh helping there. Um, I do think we're gonna have a a point in like, I don't know how many years where, you know, some of the older senior folks are retiring and there weren't as many like entry-level jobs to, you know, train up people, and we're gonna be needing more senior and experienced folks. And it's gonna be interesting what happens when we have a gap there too. Hey, uh, you know, it's it's weird. It's I I don't know where we're going with that, but there is a wall, and I think people see it and keep saying, hey, what's gonna happen when we need senior people? But we're not training anyone up. And I don't think anyone, like at least the companies themselves haven't really figured, like, looked beyond and figured out how they're gonna solve that problem yet.

James Terrebonne 20:28

That's honestly gonna be an absolute bloodbath when that happens. But I I will say I have seen this in a lot of other industries, like over the years, like a lot of weird ebbs and flows where um an industry gets very pot, you know, an industry gets very popular, lucrative. And so a lot of people want to work for it. Um, and you know, it gets oversaturated, you know, companies expand and stuff as it's a growing industry. And then, you know, you sort of have you you sort of have that um leveling out of it. And so, you know, unfortunately it's winners and losers. But I've funny enough, I've I've seen this talked about in other countries. I remember um uh one is tech tips, uh, because his wife is a former pharmacist. Um, they had this issue in Canada where like like at one point pharmacy because pharmacists is such a lucrative position uh job that they had a lot of people becoming pharmacists and there was just too many of them, and then ultimately, you know, uh it got oversaturating. You had sort of this crash of people who just couldn't get jobs and stuff. I mean, this was years ago, but I feel like we're definitely seeing something like that in the industry as a whole. But um I definitely think AI is not helping. Um, and not in the sense of like I like anti AI stance, um, but in the sense of like a lot of companies, I mean we saw this with Ford, um, you know, having to rehire a bunch of uh engineers because AI wasn't uh doing anything and or wasn't doing what they expected it to do. And I think that's what a lot of companies are doing, especially with these entry level jobs, which differently.

Tim 22:00

So uh yeah, I saw that that Ford had to hire back a bunch of people. What I've seen between that between Ford and other companies is what what is kind of being told or sold is um hire these people back, have them train the AI have them basically train the AI, and then you can refire them as the messaging that they're the C suite is getting about about this temporary flagging and you know, temporary flagging and AI.

James Terrebonne 22:26

Drives me insane because I've used it, you know, I I don't use it as much as I probably should, but I do use it quite a bit. Usually, but I see it as at least in its current form, it's gonna be a long time before it becomes remotely human-like. Like, you know, everyone says it's like, you know, can complete the um complete the bar and you know, all this and stuff.

Tim 22:48

It's not novel though, right? It can't caught with new ideas, it can't really copy what's been done.

James Terrebonne 22:52

Yeah, like the whole the whole purpose of artificial intelligence should be that um that it's intelligence, you know, like you and I, you know, we didn't just all of a sudden know how cybersecurity was. We had to we had to learn in some man in some capacity, and we built on that knowledge to to develop our understanding of the world around uh world around us and all that and how to to solve our problems. And um, while AI does quite a lot, like it there, it has had a lot of things, like I do have a lot of positives to say it has been a huge help, but it's not learning, like it's not taking what I've done and building off of that. And I think that's where a lot of companies are missing it, where it's just it's it's an assistant, it's basically a uh glorified Google searcher or Siri, um, for example. But um yeah, like I I do like a lot of other companies' approaches to this. Um, you know, Amazon uh mentioned with AWS, like they're not going to replace people with it. They want it as a sort of enhancement to their existing service. Uh my company too, uh Big Telecom, uh, they want to do the same thing. You know, they they don't see it as a replacement, they see it as a a net benefit to their teams because it allows them to focus on more difficult things. It allows the AI to do more of the easier, uh repetitive tasks. And that's kind of where we are. Um so um, and an example of how I how my take on that, or an example of all this, just not related to the jobs, but you know, I went to dinner, uh I went on a dinner date uh a while back and uh, you know, uh added in my calendar and Siri mentioned uh, you know, Team Apple here. Uh Siri mentioned uh that, hey, you know, you have this in your calendar, you know, you have this dinner date in your calendar. Do you want to silence your phone? Uh or like when I went to the movies the other day, um, it did the same thing, like, hey, you have these tickets um to this movie. Do you want to silence your phone automatically uh for it for it? And you know, that's kind of what AI is right now. It's it's it's taking what it is and offering help where it can. Um and it's just we're and I think the the thought of it replacing entry level jobs, especially, is the the most short-sighted decision by any company.

Tim 25:18

Well Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And and this is the whole cutting the bottom rungs off the ladder thing we've been talking about for a while in the industry, right? If you if you hand because that's what uh what you're saying is right, right? AI should be used as a force multiplier. Like for people that already know what they're doing, treat it like an intern or or a junior level type of person where you would give them the repetitive task that you don't have time for. Um, but what is being sold upstairs is oh, well, you don't need to hire entry-level people now because we have AI. And that's extremely short-sighted and gets straight to the point that we were that Katherine was talking about earlier about well, okay, well, what happens when the seniors want to retire? Who's left to replace them? And uh there's nobody, right? I've been talking about that for a while on the podcast. Um, you know, I don't know what the answer is, but it definitely is again, I think I think I think part of the problem is that the the need for a company to make money at all at all costs, including, you know, the very short-sighted quarterly focused earnings reports uh version, um, you know, drives this kind of behavior where you know executives are like, well, whatever, we just save money today and we take our parachute tomorrow and we don't have to worry about it, right? We'll be it will be gone by then.

James Terrebonne 26:35

Yeah, and we're also sorry, go for it.

Katherine 26:39

Well, I was gonna say we're also at this weird part of the you know the the stock market and like the things that drive like these changes is also really weird too. Like, so like five, ten years ago, like if you laid off a bunch of people, that was a sign of instability and your top your stock market you know price took a hit if you're a public company. And these days, like in the last you know, four to three years, uh if you say you're using AI and then you lay off a bunch of people because you claim you know something about AI, uh, the stock market actually rewards you and your stock price goes up because now you're being innovative. It you could be firing these people. Yeah, yeah, you're being efficient. Um, you could be firing these people because of AI in the sense that AI costs too much, or in the sense that uh you're just trying this out and you know, chaotic, uh, you know, chaotic like uh Ford did, where for you know, for the listeners who are kind of tuning in don't know that story, uh, you know, like just to go over it real quick, Ford uh wanted to use AI to build and engineer cars. They fired a bunch of engineers. Uh the AI, you know, tools that they used apparently were not that great, and they had to rush to hire new people or hire back the old people. And even then, it's like a lot of people basically told them a kick rocks because it feels like, you know, they're just gonna use whatever, you know, their time, the remaining tenure there to uh train their AI again and try us all over again in six months.

James Terrebonne 28:18

Right.

Katherine 28:18

But even these things, these failures, like the the actual act of laying off the uh users and or engineers and saying we're gonna use AI gives them a s a stock bump um during that time that they announced that. Ten years ago, if you said you were gonna fire a bunch of people and stuff like that, it just looked like in you know, financial instability in your stock market price would just you know go down.

James Terrebonne 28:40

Yeah. Yeah, no, and and we're also, you know, and it's it's just from and from another perspective too, like uh, you know, I'm not an economics major or anything,

Layoffs Hit Spending And Local Economies

James Terrebonne 28:53

you know. In the five seconds of college I did do, um uh I was planning to minor in economics as it fascinates me. But just from like an economic perspective, you know, pretty much tech jobs are some of the highest paying jobs in in the country, you know, just objectively. So, you know, we have the current K-shape economy and stuff, and it's just like when you're laying off, you know, what I think when Meta AWS and uh I think it was like almost 30,000 people total. I don't know if that's like the real total or that's how much the yeah. Yeah, yeah, Oracle, that's it. Like, like it was like tens of thousands of people, and you know, obviously we're a country of 300 and 300 plus million, that's a drop in the bucket, but at the same time, it's like that's you know, 30,000 people who are making six figures who don't have you know who aren't going to be spending money. I mean, they they have they all get a lot of them would get parachutes just because, you know, like stuff, but it's just it's uh you know, a lot of these short-sided decisions, it's just gonna come arrears probably in the next like couple of years uh at the latest.

Tim 29:58

Well, just to clarify, the what you're saying is correct, right? If if Amazon lays off a 10,000, that's fine, right? That is a drop of the bucket. But what we what we're instead seeing is that you have all of these companies collectively firing, you know, 10% of their workforce or whatever, and you're absolutely just like and I think I wrote I wrote something on my Substack about this, about this, about the short-sightedness, not short-sightedness, that's not a word. The problem, if you will, with corporate capitalism as it is, is that every company is going to do what's right for that company, but not right for society as a whole, because they're just like, if I don't do it, my competitors will, and they'll have the edge on me. So each one of them will do for themselves the thing that is most advantageous, that they think is most advantageous. For example, laying off 30,000 people or whatever, right? Well, which is fine until you have like 10 companies, 20 companies doing it. They're all doing it, and each one is doing what's right for that company. But collectively, it's exactly what you just said, right? We're taking huge buying power out of the market, out of a consumption-driven economy. God only knows what this is gonna look like in a year.

James Terrebonne 31:06

I mean, here in the greater DC metropolitan era, we've kind of already gotten a taste of that. Um, you know, uh, regardless of political opinions, you know, the doge cuts uh last year, you know, regardless of what your thoughts on that, it doesn't matter. Like that the amount of cuts that happened in such a short time was such a huge impact on us that it has caused a huge effect on the economy. Not to mention like a few other, you know, the travel policies and stuff for for uh international visitors has has caused a huge dip in uh tourism in the DC area. But you know, DC is a high cost of living area, you know. Um we're not like Seattle or San Francisco or New York City, but we are very close, like, you know, $3,000 a month for a one-bedroom apartment in in Alexandria where I live. Um, but you're uh but you know, you have these jobs, these government well-paying stable government jobs that are paying, you know, at least six figures each, you know, in these households, you know, they no longer have that. And so you're slowly taking the hit. And it doesn't help with, you know, well, you know, people have lost their jobs, like the the housing market area is still going up. And it's I think a lot of tech people here are starting to get kind of really frustrated with the whole thing because you know, a lot of tech people, Ashburn and Sterling, Virginia, again, half hour, 45 minutes from me. Uh actually more like three days with traffic, but that's just like data center capital of the world. I think it's like what US US East two and one is like 30% of web traffic in the US or something. Like it's some insane amount, it's like a huge amount just from the those data centers, and that's just them. There's dozens of data centers in the in the area. Like it's it's it's we're being held captive in by these tax companies. You know, we're losing our jobs while you know, these data centers are being built and all that. Um, but um I think with with the greater, especially in these high income areas or high cost of living areas, you're gonna see a huge hit uh with their markets because you're gonna have, you know, people with less money or they're not gonna spend as much because they got laid off. And while they probably got a really nice severance from their job, you know, a lot of these people are very money smart, so they're not gonna, they're gonna try to avoid making big expenses or or doing the things they used to do, like going out to eat a lot and stuff. So you're gonna see this huge hit. And then what's gonna happen later on is that as we're seeing a lot of kids, a lot of younger people coming out of college, the Gen Zers and seeing Gen Alpha coming out of college uh into this economy, you know, they're not gonna get those entry-level positions. So you're gonna see in the next couple of years this huge gap in job uh in uh the need for jobs and stuff. And uh we're gonna kind of I'm trying to think there's a few other industries that were kind of like this uh in the past where like this happened and then ultimately they had to like hire people with much higher like with even higher salaries than before.

Tim 34:07

A few people that knew the thing at that point.

James Terrebonne 34:10

Well, even that, but even like hiring atree-level people because there wasn't as many to pull from.

Tim 34:14

Oh, yeah, yeah, gotcha. Yeah.

James Terrebonne 34:15

So that they have to pay more money just to to get them because just to get people to come to them and we'll like uh medicine, I think, is is is still there, like healthcare. Yeah, my my my mom was a nurse, you know. We see this a lot. We're like, you know, um there's sort of these ebbs and flows, and now like, you know, especially because of the pandemic, a lot of people left uh left the industry, or uh, so they're now struggling with it and um they're not having to pay more and more. And unlike, you know, tech companies where you know they're capitalistic driven. They can, you know, they have lots of money and stuff. A lot of these hospitals are nonprofit, you know, sometimes run by university systems or state run and stuff like that. And they're not gonna have the same kind of pool to or abilities to pay those high-paying positions and stuff. And I think it's just going to be, I think in the next three or four years, we're probably um not maybe a little bit later than that, but we're we're gonna see a blend back, you know, nonetheless.

Tim 35:12

Not that I was also gonna say also go ahead, Katherine. Sorry.

Katherine 35:15

Yeah, so just to kind of back up your guys' points, um, I did do some quick Googling in between while you guys were talking. So major tech companies, so major, have cut over 400,000 jobs since the industry pivoted to artificial intelligence in 2024. And uh so that's a lot of you know high earners not being able to spend. And remember, the United States at least is a consumer economy, which you know for 70% of the uh US GDP is based on consumer spending. So when you start eradicating high-paying industries or uh high-paying jobs, uh you start to see uh you start to see less consumer spending. And that will like to back up James's point or Spud's point, that will eventually take a take a hit uh, you know, in terms of the economy. I mean, it's 40,000 400,000 uh jobs may not be quite there yet, but uh the it'll affect other non-tech jobs too, as people start to automate, you know, previous you know, blue-collar jobs and other things that they weren't able to do before, like you know, assembly of a car and things like that.

James Terrebonne 36:29

400,000 jobs, sh well, so let's let's assume like obviously it's not 400,000 people who have been on the job market since 2024. This is like let's just assume that, you know, uh let's just assume like even 300,000 of them got jobs again, like within X amount of months and stuff. Even 100,000, yeah, I'm just kind of throwing math out there, but like even 100,000 people, you know, still not finding each other. That's a huge hit. I mean, 400,000 people is a large city, that's New Orleans, New Orleans city proper, you know, population. So like imagine for I mean, even spread out over the country, that's a huge economic hit. Um, and I I think the I I don't think companies are gonna learn their lessons, but I do think it's you know, I do think it's going to be a bloodbath.

Katherine 37:21

I think that there's an awareness that I was gonna say, I think that there's an awareness of the problem from a like I I think even executives know that's a problem, but I think that given the tr the short-term transactionary uh you know nature of the industry. Yeah, like quarterly stocks. I think that they'll ride the wave till they can't ride it anymore, you know, the way that they're incentivized. Like a lot of executives in a lot of these big tech companies are incentivized by based on stock price. So they'll gobble up uh their their stock bonuses as long as they can. And when it starts to turn, that's the next CEO's problem potentially.

Tim 38:00

Yep. No, that's very short-sighted and

AI Hype Meets Real Security Work

Tim 38:03

very accurate. And that's and there's not the thing is that there's not really a lesson for companies to learn because it's really it's like uh everybody uh I think in the in my sub stack when I was talking about this, I I I likened it to a forest, right? You got one guy goes out to the forest, chops down a tree, builds a house, it's fine, right? Everything's cool. Then you have the other, you know, the next 10 people go in. So at some point, everybody's doing what's right for them, everybody's building a house, but then you have no more forest because you've everybody collectively has not done anything to make it sustainable, right? They're just all out there, you know, getting theirs. So that's where we're at. That's where we're at.

James Terrebonne 38:38

So yeah, yeah, no, yeah. Sorry. Uh computers are hard. I don't know how they I don't know how they actually work. Um, but you know, it's it's damn lost my train of thought. Daniel AHD. Um but it's very short-sighted, and you know, all these sort of hiring practices basically kind of going back to like the original part of the discussion, like a lot of these hiring practices happen coupled with these layoffs and stuff. I think that, you know, the left hand isn't talking to the right hand, like no one's talking to each other, you know, and then you have these these sort of with the like pushing hard on AI to the point where like, you know, companies are measuring token usage, um, which, you know, I'm I don't mind metrics, you know. Obviously, you have to, you need to to not only show work, but also see, you know, where your team is, you know, with the with the jobs and stuff. But I mean, like, if if a company did stuff like that, I'm gonna be honest, like, I would be walking out effectively. I mean, I wouldn't quit in this economy, but I would definitely be aggressively job hunting if they started doing that. Because it's it's those kind of metrics are meaningless, you know. Uh, if any tech if any tech CEOs or anything are or listening to this podcast, you know, um, I'm gonna bully you. Please stop doing that. Like, you know, uh, that's it just it's yeah. Um it's it's just absurd. You know, I'm very grateful that my cup the company I work for now and and other companies that I've interviewed with, they they've not they didn't even consider that. They kind of just said, oh, this is nice. This is a nice to have, we'll just keep trying this. And if it doesn't work, we'll you know, we'll figure something out, you know. Uh, and that's kind of the healthy way to be approaching this. It shouldn't be sort of this the move fast, break things startup mindset doesn't really work like people think it does. Um people just get lucky. That's that's how they were.

Katherine 40:32

I was gonna say it's it's a lot of luck. Okay, you break break stuff. I mean, and what works for a small company doesn't necessarily work for a Fortune 100 company. You break stuff and you can break some, you could break the economy, you could break the financial system. Like you you don't want to just roll like ship fast and be like, oh, don't worry, we'll play around with mythos later when we get access to it and try to fix it then or triage the issue then.

James Terrebonne 40:55

Yeah, and you know, the move fast break thing minds, you know, the um, you know, Google, the the Fang companies are still operating as if they're still startups. And and you know, I don't have first hand experience with Fang, but I do have very close friends who have been in the who've been with those companies for years. Um, and you know, it's like you're you're it's not a matter of you know building, maintaining a product. It's what idea can you come up with that we can do? And Google, Google was doing this for years. The reason why I don't have Google anymore is because of Google Play Music, you know, this is why I switched to iPhone. Uh, I miss that so much. I hate YouTube music, but it's and you know, the inchidification of things, you know, I I look and you know, with the push of AI in the industry and stuff, you know, if you've ever been to DC uh and you've ever taken the metro, uh, you see these ads all over the metro for, you know, ton, especially government-related ads. So, like, you know, you'll see like the usual like Raytheon, you know, F35 ads and stuff. Uh, and then you'll see like, you know, you'll see like the tech for government type ads, you know. Um at my the metro station next to me, like it was plaster with Figma um stuff, which I was like, is this really AI? This just feels like Grammarly and a few and like Adobe kind of mixed together, but I didn't actually look into it. And but you know, a lot of this AI, I'm like, what you know, if I was looking to talk to your salesperson, like what are you what is this product? Like, what are you providing to me that is a net benefit to me? Like, and but the problem is also that with the government right now is like even though spending has been cut drastically, like trying to spend money is really difficult. In the few cases you can spend money, a lot of times they just see AI and you know, ooh shiny and they just force the contract officers to sign it and stuff. And so it's um it's just it's ridiculo it's you know, I I I think it's it's I don't know where to go with that thought, uh um ADHD bring to a burr. Um but it's just uh it's just ridiculous. You know, I passed by these all the time. And I'm like, I I just look at them like, what do you do? I mean, even when I'm like to San Francisco, like like um just looking at the ads, I'm like, what is what what the fuck is this? Like it's it's just a word on a poster. Like, what am I supposed to do with this information?

Tim 43:23

Yeah, marketing at its best.

James Terrebonne 43:27

And and yeah, and I think that most of this is just the left hand is not talking with the right hand, you know. You know, or or if it is, it's just um it's just you know, the executives just saying, okay, you have to do this, um and with no clear direction or no clear framework to build off of. They just say, do this, and they're just just going with whatever. I mean, I had uh I worked for uh a federal contract, I worked for the back office for their their corporate security for a while, and uh uh I remember giving the task to secure PowerShell um and while that's doable it's it it we basically give me the option of of we can block everything or we can just let people use or we can still let you know we can block everything and then like break all of our systems or we can just continue using PowerShell and just keep monitoring it like we've been doing and um our the C suite was like uh nope secure it and so then they then a lot then they got bad that like a lot of systems were breaking because we had to block a lot of PowerShell uh queries and stuff it's just like but like these sort of mindsets were yeah yeah and just people aren't pushing back like they should be we're saying like we we can't do this you know we we have to say no um you know I've been grateful having a lot of leader or having a lot of managers who were willing to just say no this is stupid don't ask for this again um but a lot of managers you just kind of roll uh rolled onto their back roll on their backs and just let it happen and then when I try to ask them questions they just kind of shrug it. So blocking all of PowerShell I'm just like if you have a Windows uh if you have a Windows like uh yeah not just Windows server environment but like Windows workstations things like that PowerShell PowerShell is great for like remote monitoring querying a lot of computers that and it's really useful on the back end too for automate for just like basic automation stuff and yes you know we did a presentation to leadership on this uh especially to our to our CISO and like the VP of of tech or whatever for a company and this is a this is like I think like the sixth largest um federal contractor in the world um kind of thing and um we basically in corporate speak said uh if we do this it's gonna break a lot of systems it'll break everything and they're like oh this is this sounds great let's do it and I think um I think I I and I really wish I was able to kind of like scream and shout at them because uh but um I was told to be be on my best behavior so I had to be on my best behavior for that meeting it's just like it's it's it and you know I saw this in government too like the government's really bad about this especially now with a lot of uh directives and stuff well I mean it's it's a perfect analogy right like the you know they're um the C-suite or whatever each each of them are gold on their own thing right and so for them that's the most important thing and none of them are looking at the big the big picture for the whole company.

Tim 46:37

They're just the CISO is thinking hey I'm gold on some you know like getting this locked down so I don't care what it affects just get it locked down because that's what I want. That's sort of that's what I'm gold on.

Katherine 46:48

So and I was going to say with AI sometimes like even like we've heard some of the st stories about like the Department of War you know deploying Grok internally because they had a uh they had a uh directive to just deploy AI and it ended up being fundamentally just not useful for the applications they were they were trying to do with it. But they you know deployed it they're like yay like you know plant a flag we deployed AI and then it ended up uh they ended up wanting to tear it out because it I I I again this is speculative but this is based on news stories. Apparently it just wasn't performing well things like that but they probably spent ungodly amounts of money just deploying it to say to plant that flag and say they did it.

James Terrebonne 47:29

I have actually this reminds me it's very early especially early on when like a lot of when a lot of this started um a threat intelligence platform that uh I used at my previous job um owned by Google that you know we paid like a quarter million dollars a year or something like some insane amount to they had and it was all right of a platform I have my own gripes about it but um they started pushing Gemini to it and I was like okay actually this could be useful you know Gemini was kind of stupid at the time but it would still be fairly useful. And at the time this was during the the Paris Olympics so I was kind of doing some research on that for for stuff and um and you know just like Google like even just asking you know uh what are the known risks associated you know that we could be looking at with the Paris 2024 Olympics and uh it would just like say back unfortunately you know I'm not allowed to build malware so I can't uh continue with this prompt and I'm like I'm not building you know it's like maybe every time I queried it it would just and I'm like okay so like and I would even just give like a test where like I know the article and stuff like I know what what you know where it's gonna where it should go and I plus like give me like like give me information on fancy bear or or salt typhoon um and right it would give me this basically the same answer. You say like unfortunately you like I see you're trying to build malware I can't help you with this.

Tim 48:57

It's like mythos or something.

James Terrebonne 48:59

Like what F was first deployed and the moment did that I immediately stopped using that and uh I I uh I basically uh said can we talk to uh I really want to talk to the salesperson that we have for this because I want to uh tell them that this product is bad and they should feel bad because like this was absolute garbage. I I'll be honest like um I I mean it's it's the platform has gotten a little bit better. There's other issues with it not really to AI but like if if I ever see someone who who works works with the platform uh for the company um you know I will let them know my opinions because it was really it was all it was actually quite useless. I mean they pulled it after like three or four months because I mean I mean Gemini's still stupid but I need Gemini a minute like oh this I was gonna say like don't worry we're about to get Fable 5 back but it's even gonna uh from what I saw in the new like the actual uh anthropic announcement it's gonna be even more neutered than the last time um cost twice three times as much yeah so the your your your example of hey tell me about fancyware I can't talk about that that's security downgrading to opus 4.8 it's gonna be happily answer your question by the way yeah it's just it's it it um I didn't even have a chance to even try it out when it was released because like the moment like I even knew that it was a thing because I don't really follow AI news that much it's just too much um that by the time I was like oh maybe maybe I'll give it a try it was already like sanctioned and all that I was like but it's yeah and you know I I think AI is not intelligent you know I'm gonna be honest like um a lot of AI has been useful but it's mostly been kind of stupid because like I'll you know not just using the the examples from social media but just like my own experience you know a lot um a lot of it just doesn't know what it's doing um like I think I asked it to do like write help me write a regex uh string uh because I was like because I couldn't remember how to write a regex for like IP for like an IP address and stuff and I was like I can't remember what it gave me exactly but I was like looking at this I'm like even I know this is wrong and I kept telling it it's wrong like hey you might need to fix this and uh it would just it would just give me the same answer or it would just slightly adjust it to an even more wrong answer and I'm like like where's the intelligence in this my my cat could give me a better answer than this.

Katherine 51:38

I was gonna myself I was gonna say thankfully uh a lot of like the bigger models have gotten better at things like regex and stuff but it it still is somewhat behind on like like actual security tasks and secure coding things like that. It but it has gotten better at that since you've tried it. I was gonna say like in earlier models they like they were terrible.

James Terrebonne 52:05

Or if you ask them to do stuff in like a in a language that's more uh that's more like corner case like hey write me something in assembly cobalt uh do uh write something in rust it it tends not to be as as good well and then uh you know with the Garrick pushing AI I remember um uh DHS pushing AI pretty hard and mind you it's been a couple of months now so a lot of models have gotten better since then and I don't know what I don't know what system our models they were using at DHS at the time but um it's just like a lot of it wasn't even linked to like they were telling us like actively use it it's you know you can use this to help find documents or or kind of gather like help build out reports and stuff and I was like okay this actually might be useful especially because we're doing a lot of big projects and um none of it was tied to like any sort of back end stuff within our systems. So like when I would tell it to kind of even when I was giving it a test like find our team SharePoint uh and all that it it was like it couldn't even find it it basically said like this you know we don't have access to this stuff and it and it and I knew that the page I was telling you to look for was a public facing page that it should have had at least internally public but uh public facing and I'm just and then I never used it again because I'm like this is useless. Um I can't do anything practical with this.

Katherine 53:26

Um yeah so I know that we have to start wrapping it up now because uh we've gone like 55 minutes.

Practical Advice And Where To Find Spud

Tim 53:32

We've gone a little bit further than we intended but that's okay because these are these are good stories that people need to hear, right? So go ahead.

Katherine 53:38

Yeah this is good stuff.

Tim 53:39

Um anyways I'll I'll let Tim close um I I well I hate to leave I feel like every every episode we we talk about AI we seem to leave with this bleak uh you know dystopian view that uh we're all we're all doomed. I don't I don't I don't think there's good advice to give people uh that are you know trying to get into history right now I think it's as hard as it ever has been harder than it ever has been rather I think the best advice I've been giving is just you know keep pushing.

James Terrebonne 54:12

I know Kat does especially when I would bring up like I had a really bad imposter syndrome for a while where I felt like am I actually like have I been lying to myself the entire time? You know just really bad. And then she had a mutual friend of ours were were basically trying to beat me to death with positivity being like you're better than that. And um all I can say is that if you're an entry level person listening to this or you're just someone like me who who's been unemployed who is unemployed or is unemployed for months and stuff just do your best keep pushing you know can consider you know just consider alternatives in the short term you know um just do what you can in the short term. None of this is your fault. You know you you know a lot of the people I talked to are at your level were were incredibly smart and capable and the people who are unemployed were also the same way. Just keep pushing you know do the best it's not none of this is your fault.

Katherine 55:03

Don't kick yourself a few this yeah the other thing I would also the also the other thing I would also add is um we've gone through shakes shakeups in the industry before like one of the things I think we've we talked about throughout this last hour or so is that you know there is a wall that's going to be hit eventually as far as like needing senior people, as far as needing to train people up. Yeah I've lived through like I became an adult around the 2000 dot com crash when everybody thought the the tech industry was done for good type of thing. And it obviously rebound back I was I got into tech in 2008 when the economy was crashing and people were like there's no jobs anywhere and real estate is done for for good and I got a job in tech and the real estate industry did bounce back and people are buying houses again in in places. So even though it is bleak now I think that there is I mean as dystopian as it is it there is a wall that that eventually will hit where we have to real we realize no, we actually do need tech technical people. Yes we actually need people to manage these agents and to actually spot check its work and we don't we do need to get people trained up to be senior to be able to handle this. And it may not feel like you know we as you're looking for a job and struggling and having to take a lower paying job or or a job to fill in in meantime that there's an end in sight. But there it there literally has to be because you know the this can't the economy and the you know the need to be secured or to create stable products will eventually hit a wall where we're where consumers won't buy this crap this stuff anymore if it's actual crap or exposing their personal information over and over again. Or just won't be any consumers left who knows yeah exactly but and the economy can't sustain off of that and it's AI is extremely expensive. And if you don't have consumers buying your products bec uh to supplement that then AI effec effectively becomes just a a hole burning money in your pocket.

James Terrebonne 57:11

Yeah. I'd say at least in the next six months to a year we're definitely gonna see kind of how how the K-shaped economy is holding up because that's where we've been in since the pandemic began. So um yeah um I think I think we're going to see you know we're over everything's oversaturated there is a there is a correction on the horizon and I think the AI bubble is not going to won't necessarily pop but we'll definitely deflate significance. I don't think we're gonna see like that dot-com type bust um but we're definitely gonna see you know a huge deflation with the we're seeing pullback already from enterprises that aren't seeing the value like you know and then again remember every every dollar we're spending on all this AI is actually costing like ten dollars right like it's all still heavily subsidized like when when the real money comes comes home to roost um people are gonna treat it like cloud they're gonna pull back from it um use it only where it's needed etc etc so yeah all right well um let's go ahead and wrap here uh thanks for being our guests but we'll definitely have you back another time uh yeah no worries everyone thank you oh shoot i'm i'm so stupid where can where can people find you online man yeah so uh yeah you can pretty much find me uh everywhere on social media either um at uh my twitter and blue sky is spud security uh you can I believe my my tick tock that I post like once every five years on is uh SpudSec but it might also be Spud Security and I'll be at uh B sides Las Vegas and DEF CON uh next month so come find me you'll see me in uh in the giant buckies onesie I won't be too hard to find awesome all right well uh thanks for joining us for another episode of the Cables2Clouds podcast and we'll see everyone next time